Unfortunately, the dialect has been corrupted/coopted to be used as a means to downplay the seriousness of a complaint as a titillation/trivialization of the issue. It comes laden with the snickering behind the hands level of “hawt nekkid chix!” discussion, and generally used as a means to pre-emptively dismiss complaints.

That’s why I picked it in passing – because going “pictures of nekkid chicks” has been used as a derogatory way to describe naked women, since it has been used as a means to imply sexualised behaviour.

Being Australian, I wasn’t actually aware it was a regional expression, and everywhere I’ve heard/seen the word it’s carried a kind of ‘omgnaughty’ implication that I find discomfiting.

I’m not big on cheap shots on spelling and grammar myself, and I can’t speak for DS, but I suspect he was coming from a similar position.

It’s very hard for me to be rational about this when I, and everyone around me as I sit here typing this, is being marked as a bit of a moron from the get-go.

Criticize the implications of the word if you like, but don’t take cheap shots.

What “ordinary people” come across comics? Unles ytou know a comics fan, or are in a comic store, you will not “come across” comics. Maybe you might see some trades tucked away in a corner at Barnes and noble, maybe.

Bullshit.

Since manga’s explosion, every single subsection within the overall graphic novels section in my BN has grown. We now have a GN section for kids as well as teens and our regular section is nearly twice as big now than it was a year ago. (btw, the kid’s GN section has no titles by DC or Marvel in it, yet the kid’s section is inundated with other publishers books making use of their characters.)

What mainstream bookstore still has only “some trades tucked away in a corner?” The only reason the GN section is still where it is is because it’s still a destination subject. Genre/subject placement in bookstores is determined by a combination of sales, how much effort people are willing to put into reaching that genre/subject, and the rate at which sales depends on browsers. If sales alone determined placement, fiction and kids would be at the front, not at the back and off to the side. Instead, it’s bargain, bestsellers, and business/travel/self-improvement because those have the highest browse to sales ratios and the lowest numbers of people willing to make an effort to find the section.

GN may be still in the back, but with the number of tables and displays we’ve had featuring GN of all kinds over the past year, it’s definitely shifting very much towards the role general fiction has. Hot items are placed at the front, but the regular stuff is at the back because people are willing to go to more of an effort to browse it than they are bargain or self-help books.

The real kicker, however, is that we’ve been getting and placing the new Dark Tower and Buffy comics in prominent positions – and they’ve been selling like crazy.

I take issue with the “nekkid” precisely because of the definitions you give. Saying “nekkid” rather than “naked” doesn’t exactly clarify what else the naked [whatever] is doing, it simply justifies the voyeur aspect of many of these pieces by saying it’s ok partly because “well, they’re up to something.” And excuses it the sentiment by making it all sound juvenile and harmless.

It bugs me because they don’t just say “pretty naked women!” – which I’d consider pretty damn harmless – they have to say “naughty naked girls!” which brings all kinds of nasty stuff into the mix.

He calls himself rational! How funnier can you get?

Lest start responding to your idiocy shall we?

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Maybe the fact that when ordinary people come across comics, and voice criticism, they’re told to go away. I’d point the judgemental hand of wrath at the people who tried to dig in and wall their comic book kingdoms away from people who saw Spiderman3 and reacted negatively to the MJ statue

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What “ordinary people” come across comics? Unles ytou know a comics fan, or are in a comic store, you will not “come across” comics. Maybe you might see some trades tucked away in a corner at Barnes and noble, maybe.

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So, let’s spin this one out wide. What do you see as the LCS/direct market barriers

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What you mean beyond the fact that you have to have enough interest in comics to actually go to a specially store in order to be exposed to them?
Beyond the fact that you have to be openminded enough to not assume thay are still meant for children, and to actually have an LCS in your area beofre the content can actully turn you away?
Not much.

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Starbucks sells. Microsoft sells. Star Wars sells. Cheesecake FAILS by comparison

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Wow, did you miss the short bus to school today?

Starbucks is an inanely invlaid comparison. They sell coffee, coffee is nto a form of visual entertainment. Neither is Microsoft. Star wars however, your only entertainment associated example had loads of cheesecake. And not just carrie fisher in a gold bikini. But hey never let tha fact that your acxtually rebutting your own arguments stop you. Im am getting way too much of a kick out of this.

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Demonstrate that to me – Here’s the playing field – http://imdb.com/boxoffice/alltimegross?region=world-wide
Show me the money.

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Again you completly missed an imprtant point. Movies, and TV are by and large “colelctive entertainment” meaning to those of you such as yourself who are cortically impaired, that it is a form of entertainment which can be enjoyed in a group.
Comics aren’t.
Why is this imprtant?
Well look at the top grossing film of all time on your linked list. “Titanic”
Titanic was without a doubt a “chick flick”.
However chicks were not thew only ones who wtched it, a large percentage of those who bought tickets were men.
This would seem to support your thesis, if your the type of person who doesnt think things through, you are Im not.
You see the men didn’t by and large go to see titanic becaus they wanted to, they went because thier mothers/girlfriends/wives/dates etc, wanted to see it.
Just as Action Movies which by and large appeal pirmarily to men, still draw women uninterested in the movie who attend wiht men who are.

This concept however is not applicable to comics.
WHy?
Becasue comics are an inherantly individual form of entertainment.
Lets assume for a moment a comic was published in which the portrayl of women was so enlightened that every female comic fan alive bought it. Would that correspond to an increase in male readership similar to that recived by ttianic?
No.
Because men and women even if dating and even if both comic fans, dont sit down and read the same comic at the same time. A woman cant “pull” or “drag” her man to read or buy the comic in the way she can when its a movie or tv show.
Even if she naggs him into reading it, chances are hes going to read her copy, and increase sales not a whit.

Now as to your second point that cheesecake doesnt sell. Lets look at the movies themselves.

Half of those listed in the top 100 are kids movies, which again demostrates the pull effect. Afterall children rarely see movies unaccmpanied.

Once you remove the kids movies, and those with a built in audience, such as The starwars sequels and the LOTR triology what are we left with?
2 categories.
chick flicks, and action movies.
Every one of whic proves my point.
Every single one of the action movies both contained, and advertised cheescake.
Every single one fo the “chick flicks” contained and marketed beefcake.
in fact numbers 123 6 &7 half of the top ten all conatined notbale cheese or beefcake.

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Frank Miller and Jim Lee are peak sales draws in comics. The fact that the comics are falling in sales figures, and having to use variant covers (10 covers for one of the issues) is showing that the cheesecake is failing to hold

Given the resounding history associated with both creator and artist, I’d say the primary driver for the Issue#1 sale was the collectible nature of the product. That could explain the 100K difference between Issue 1 and 2. Also, if they’re using variant covers as a technique, that’ll increase sales to the collector markets, and from memory, Frank Miller was producing custom covers. Again, a collector market technique to increase numbers.

In fact, show me the sales figures for the cheesecake comics (where cheesecake is the priority) compared to the other comics.

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Every comic experiences a drop off from number 1 to suggest otherwise is sheer duplicity. Number 2 contained copious amounts of cheescake,. yet the drop off in sales between number 2 and number 3 was minimal.

Comics where cheescake is the focus? There are none as you well know. at least none produced by mainstream comics companies (ie the big two) Comics where there are copious amounts of cheescake?
lets ee
JLA, JSA, Batman, Superman, WOnder WOman, etc etc etc.
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BZZT! Here’s the bad news chuckles. Drink Driving was a formerly masculine ability to handle your liquor and be man enough to drive home safe when you were wasted because you were a guy and you were hardcore. Your response indicates you have been successfully recoded to accept the non-masculine world view of alcohol impaired driving as a bad thing. So, the macho male view point of drink driving wasn’t immutable. Neither’s anything to do with the portrayal of females in comics.

All views are to some extent from entirely to mostly moderated by social pressure.

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Nice try mary sue.
Drunk driving was never a “masculiner trait” some men did attempt to justify it as such. But that was never more than a hollow attempot at justification which few if any took seriously. TYhe fact is the emphasis on DD rose and grew in line with the number of automobiles on the road. As more people got on the road, DD’s created more collateral damage until it became a important enough issue to tackle.
To claim that drunk driving is a “non masculine worldview” is one of the most ignorant, idiotic, undefensible and ironically sexist views I have ever seen expressed. Congrats not only are you not the sharpest knife in the drawer, you are a misandrist.
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So, the appropriate response is to not make the medium something people can enjoy? I told you we’re in agreement here Rels. Making the medium enjoyable to male and female readers is a fabulous plan, and I’m glad you can see that TV has paved the way for us.

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Well if men and women could enjoy comics toegether maybe.

Of course thats not possible in the same way as for TV, Radio, or Movies, which is why its also completly wrong.

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Again, I wonder what it is about the comic that’s putting the barrier into place here. Why wouldn’t a guy be comfortable reading a comic with a female companion?

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The same reason men and women dont sit down and read new york times best sellers at the same time.

Have you ever tried reading anything wiht someone else?
The only way which even comes close to working is reading to them. Which doesn’t work in a medium where the pictures are a huge part of the stoirytelling.

Lets make this easy for those of who you wore helmets to school.

At a movie, or at homoe watching tv, a man and a woman can sit side by side and enjoy a story together. The story unravels for them at the same pace, they see events at the same time, they hear dialogue spoken at the same time.

Now lets imagine the same two people reading a comic.

They read at different rates, admire thew pictures fdor different amounts of time, take different amounts of time to chew on story ideas, hear different “voices” for the characters in their heads.

In other words one is a shared ewxperience, one is a individual experience. Movies get a knock on effect from chickl flicks and kids movies becasue they are collective entertainemnt. WOmen take men to see them, children take thier parents to see them. Are comics a colelctive or idividual entertainment experience?

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Demonstrate some support for that claim. I can show you that mainstreaming out the cheesecake sells 19 to 1 on the movie market figures. Show me that piling in the cheesecake moves units.

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Just asking that question shows why “social change marketing” can not be considered marketing.
If you understood real marketing, you wouldn’t have to ask.

Firs of all you can demonstrate no such thing, since the two mediums and mroe imprtantly the experience of being entertained by them are not analogous.
Secoond of all as I have al;ready shown many of these movies you consider “cheescake free” had quite a bit of cheesecake.
Finally to look at the vast bulk of marketing done using cheescake, in america and elsewhere, and coclude that it doesnt move units can only be the result of willful ignorance.

Afterall its not like one of the most known and accurate of all marketing aphorism is “sex sells” or anything.

But I guess thats what happens when you study (snicker) “Social change Marketing” as opposed to, you know, real marketing.