In my day job, I tend to deal with the odd bit of statistical data here and there. Tonight's data analysis was looking at some research I'd conducted with a friend on Equestrian sport. What do horses and comics have in common?
Well, for one thing, sport and comics are often subject to the same gender blinkers. Motivations for sport participation are subject to gendered interpretation, and one noticable thing that stuck out tonight was the gender tinted goggles where "Men are more competitive than women, therefore women are not competitive".
Except that the data quitely clearly showed that women have a competitive streak, and can be competitive. Which got me thinking – a lot of what is said about why super hero comics aren't for girls is based on assumed roles and attitudes. Girls aren't into super hero comics because they're not aggressive / assertive / boys / spandex addicted /
So I have an idea.
Help me generate a list of the character traits that allegeldy make comics okay for boys and bad for girls. Y'know, the usual half assed excuses generated by people wanting to say "No! COMICS NOT FOR GIRL. GIRL NOT SPEECH IN CAPS! GIRL NOT SMRT ENOUGH FOR COMIC!" type of jackassery.
The problem I know I have is that I have that whole power/priviledge position, so essentially, I'm quite blind to materials I'm seeking. As much as I want to see where the gender barrier lies, I'm on the wrong side of the invisible barrier. This is why I'm requesting the help here, and why now, and why I'm needing it as feedback/comments to the blog post. Because I went looking, and damn it, I know it's there, and I'm having trouble seeing it (stupid trees are in the way of me seeing the woods).
Because once I can see it, I can measure it, analyse and dissect it. (Data will also be available for analysis by other GW bloggers. Your eyes and mine together make for shallower gender bugs).
So, peoples of GW, League of Substitute Superheroes, Take Back the Knight and Girls Read Comics, anyone. An assist to highlight what character traits are given gender roles and used as excuses for why you, the female reader, can't read superhero comics.
It's hard to think this way. I'd wager that you can make a list just as well as I can.
Girls are into fashion, not spandex (unless it's in fashion).
Girls are into babies, not firetrucks.
Girls want to talk, not punch.
Girls want to be rescued, not to rescue.
Pains me to type those things and hold a picture of my niece in my head at the same time. I feel strained.
wait.. now I'm confused.. I guess I presumed the writer of this blog to be female. So the power/priviledge thing was NOT being in it.. so asking for views of the males.. but then the final paragraph reads differently. "why you, the female reader, can't read superhero comics" — so.. sorry.. ignore my previous post.
(cause i've already embarrased myself, i'll continue)
I see now that this blog is written by Dr. Stephen Dann. But I only found that information on the girl-wonder.org site, not on this blog. That's tricky.
Tim,
That's interesting for me that I came across as female rather than male. I've deliberately left my name off the blog here, so it's the words on the screen that do the talking.
Actually, your suggestions are a useful start for me as well, so relax, it's all welcome, and all useful in the end.
S
women are natural pacifists.
women are not interested in sex.
women would prefer to read harlequin romance to comics. If they do read comics, they read manga.
women are typically less interested in fantasy, science fiction, and imaginative things.
women are too busy complaining about the "sexist" content of comics to really understand them.
i wasn't going to post, but since the comments are coming slowly, i thought i'd throw in a few. also, this forum post is a good sample of genuine comments.
Good luck to you. For the record, I assumed you were a woman, too. Silly assumptions..
a very intriguing topic. i've been lurking with interest for a while, but i thought i'd chime in here a bit (i can't resist discussions of gender roles!). so, just off the top of my head:
women are turned off/repulsed by violence, but men revel in it (and often feel the need to "protect" women from it by preventing them from reading some comics or just scaring them away)
women don't like to *see* graphic depictions of sex, but they do like to *read* descriptions (addendum to zarah's mention of harlequin romances)
women think comics are childish and cannot change that view (this allows the male comic fan to pull the "misunderstood outcast" act)
men need the role models to go out and conquer things and protect their homes/families/etc, but women have no instinct for such things.
i'm sure i can come up with more, just give me some time ;)
That's interesting for me that I came across as female rather than male. I've deliberately left my name off the blog here, so it's the words on the screen that do the talking.
I wonder if it's because of the topics you are dealing with, because it's a feministic perspective and in general, people perceive this as a "women thing". As in, "Men aren't interested in feminism", "Only women object to the objectification of women", "Men can never be true feminist allies" and so on. Just like, when I am writing about GLBT issues, people assume I must be queer because otherwise I would have no reason to write about them.
And, well, perhaps the majority of feminists are women, and perhaps I am queer, but that doesn't change the fact that the assumption itself is rather sad, actually.
On to the questions… What aggravates me, personally, is the "Women Read Mangas Only" stance. This argument is "backed up" by gendered arguments such as the following:
- Girls want to read about relationships and feelings, not about "action". Mainstream US comics aren't about feelings, but fighting, so girls won't be interested. (This is similar to the "indie" approach: Women prefer reading indie comics, because these are all about the relationships.)
- Girls want to look at pretty things: Artsy panels, soft lines, huge eyes, flowery ornaments, etc.
- Girls want to read about female heroines ONLY; no way they'd be able (or willing) to identify with a male hero.
There's also a weird sense of… "backhanded compliments" being made, maybe? I'm not sure about the appropriate term here — that girls want to read "intelligent" stuff and stories that are "realistic" and "teach" you something (coming of age, love, friendship, etc.), but this also implies girls don't read for entertainment value, have no imagination or weren't blessed with a sense of humour… and I don't like this subtle hint that girls would need "reasons" to read comic books, whereas boys… just read them because they, well, are boys.
One that comes to mind which hasn't been mentioned is the notion that girls don't have the adolescent power fantasy that drives superhero comics. Or something to that effect. It's not usually that explicit, but simply the assertion that the power fantasy is why girls don't read superhero comics/don't understand superhero comics.
The ones I hear most are:
Women are only interested in romance in stories
Women are only interested in reading about women
Women are more interested in reading then in art
Women 'don't get' the comics art style (granted I've mostly just heard that one when a guy was trying to defend Liefield or the use of tracing in comics)
Women aren't geeky enough to understand and enjoy comics
Most of the time the things you hear thrown about aren't reasons at all, but the attitude that it's a boy's club so women have no right to even want to be involved. Also that women have manga so they don't have any reason to complain about western comics being sexist.
One of the things I have always found strange is how when talking about super hero comics is the notion that it's only about stopping crimes and solving mysteries. What GOOD LASTING superhero book isn't about relationship (and busting bad guys). All through comics we have Superman and Lois, Batman and Robin, Captain America and Bucky…
Not all of these are about romantic relationships but they are about people with the busting bad guys tossed in.
Anyhow
the one I heard around the comic stand was
Girls like things orderly
Girls only buy mystery books
Read Harvey Mansfield's stuff – okay, i'm not Evil, just Chaotic, so I won't tell you to read his whole book "Manliness" b/c that would be too cruel- but any online interview with him or short article of his will pull up a long list of "masculine traits" like "being aggressive" and "being intellectual" and "being outgoing" which all tie into his belief that GUYZ RUlE and girls belong in the home, unless they're Margaret Thatcher. And, coincidentally, why the natural heroes and protagonists as well as villains of any action/adventure thing should be male.
…I wrote this long thing and it went poof. O_~
Basically, girls have sex for the relationship, guys have relationships for the sex.
Girls dislike violence, and are not competitive. Yet, in a high school fight, guys just puff up their chests and get a few punches in for machismo's sake, then let their friends pull them away. Girls keep ripping and clawing until "that bitch is dead!" Is there any truth to that? Also, girls hurt each other with really cruel words, while guys fight with fists and are hesitant to literally punch below the belt. Doesn't one stereotype directly conflict with the other?
I can't remember the rest, except for this cheerful anecdote:
A girl and a boy walk into a comic book store. The girl makes a beeline for the bat-titles, while the boy gathers an armful of CLAMP and Love Hina. Pan the faces of everyone else in the store. (No, it's not funny at all. The only manga I read have ninjas kicking ass and blowing shit up, or pirates kicking ass and blowing shit up. Why is that weird?)
Oh, and according to my librarian friend it's guys that usually only identify with male protaganists, and females that empathize with both male and female lead. Or perhaps this is just in SF, which had until recently been totally dominated by males which left no female lead for girls to identify with so an SF girl had to read the male leads or buy Cosmo. Sorry, run-on there.
(that'll teach me not to copy and save my posts…)
No wai– another Naruto/One Piece fangirl? Excellent. (This is actually a fairly large net demographic.)
There was a really "fabulous" letter in the column of a recent issue of Kirkman's "Invincible". The writer went on and on about how gory the comic had gotten (fight in question: Mark and Nolan versus some Viltrumites) and how this meant it was definitely a guy's guy's column, that he bet Invincible had no female readers now!
So I think that's a pretty big one. Violence and gore and blood and guts fighting. (Not that it hasn't been said a million times already in these comments!)
I think another big one to consider is "but action comics aren't written FOR women." Which is clearly true, in many cases– witness the way the women are drawn– and becomes an issue somewhat akin to that witnessed in any specialized literature. Men are going to get weird looks for reading harlequins, adults for watching Warner Brothers cartoons. There is a clear intended audience for these books, and it is not women.
"a guy was trying to defend Liefield"
Was he high? I mean, that's got to be the only explaination!
Ok, lets see:
Men are the protective ones, women only take up protecting others when it threatens their babies (then they go back to the kitchen).
Women are nurturing and prefer to be passive, men are dominating and prefer to be active. Therefore women don't want to be or read about superheroes because that requires taking on "masculine" traits of activity.
Men have Great Important Destinies, women have babies.
Women focus on fashion, men focus on form. That's the explaination as to why all female comic book heroes are dressed that way. (Also includes myth women like high heels, men don't care what women wear. Complete fertilizer!)
Men don't like plot, they buy books for the violence. Women don't like violence, they buy books for the plot. You know that has to be a lie, ask any male fan for a brief synopsis of say…Green Lantern's history and see how much plot they recall.
Oh and the grand slam: Women have no interest or desire for sex, men can't think about anything else or control themselves. That's why theres so much sexualization in comics, men will buy anything if you put T&A on it because they're all dumb sots. (Remember, I don't think this about men, Frank Miller, apparently, does.)
I've once heard that women just don't have the spatial reasoning skills to follow the comic book panels and speech bubbles, and so they just get confused by comic books. Which I thought was one of the stupidest things I've ever heard in my life.
A girl and a boy walk into a comic book store. The girl makes a beeline for the bat-titles, while the boy gathers an armful of CLAMP and Love Hina.
OMG, Taz, have you been watching my fiance and I shop?!?!
(My recent purchases included all of the BoP graphic novels; he's picking up the newest CLAMP series)
Ok, to bring this back around to something topical…. (substitute "women" as necessary)
- because girls don't like violent storylines
- because girls aren't interested in comics
- because girls don't care about superheroes
- because girls only want to read about other girls (this is not only ridiculous, it's completely backwards. The publishing industry has known for years that a book with a male protagonist will attract readers of both genders; one with a female protagonist will only appeal to girls.)
- because girls would rather read about horses
- because girls only want to read about romance
- because girls who want to read about male superheroes aren't "real" girls – they're abnormal and probably antisocial. And definately ugly.
- because girls can't understand the science involved
- because girls want interesting characters instead of fight scenes.
Possibly tangentially related, but I recall hearing a LOT that comics are important for boys because they help little boys learn to read. (As opposed to little girls, who read Babysitters Club or something, which magically appear in the house once they turn seven.)
I assume these are comics from some alternate dimension where the 80s never happened.
Fortunately, I have yet to be given any reasons why I, as a bearer of ovaries, can't read comics.
I've rarely been told outright WHY I shouldn't read superheroes. Mostly it's just implied. Like that one guy who saw me staring at a big Marvel crossover team-up issue someone left in a classroom (I was trying to figure out if the artist had actually managed to fit every single Marvel superhero in existence on one wraparound cover):
Guy (Mr Rogers voice): This is a COMIC BOOK. Can you say "COMIC BOOK?" And that's Wolverine, and…
Me: And that's the Hulk, and that's Iron Man, and Hawkeye, and the Scarlet Witch, and…
Guy: … (Head explodes.)
Direct quote. Except for the part where his head explodes. Dammit.
Judging by the condescending baby-talk he used (grrrrrrrrrrrrr…), his attitude seemed to be that I was not mature enough to understand superhero comics.
…Yyyyeah.
CNN.com – Researchers identify 'male warrior effect'
I've never had any guy condescend to me, or say in my presence any reason why women shouldn't or don't read comics in general or superhero comics in specific, but for some reason I remember coming across the idea that:
Women don't like comics because the set-up of DM stores intimidates them.
Not true. I mean, the statement was made with the assumption that comic book stores are small, warren-like holes-in-the-wall, with low lighting, dark shelves, and almost no room to walk around.
Uh, that's also the description of my favorite comics store.
It's also not true of the three others I've bought from. One was in New York, kinda big and deep with plenty of room to walk around, and well lit. Another has low lighting whenever I'm in there, but it has plenty of windows and lots of floor space <i>not</i> taken up by back issues. The last, which is the first one I went to, had light-colored shelves, good lighting <i>and</i> plenty of windows, and was in its own building.
I liked the last one least.
In summary: if the generalization's true, that's because of a "boys' club" mentality that the owners/cashiers project rather than anything about the layout or size of the store.